insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - Printable Version
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insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - what? - 09-12-2007
Anhil8tor Wrote:I bet new england loses a first round pick over this...
how about suspending bilecheck for a few games?
he'd just coach from the locker room via webcam
edit: and I agree that this is being blown out of proportion. I said at lunch today that schemes/audibles/signals etc change too much from week to week for this to be a huge advantage. even if they found a way to listen in on the qb helmet receiver thing, and actually knew the opponents' terminology well enough to determine what play was being run, then they'd still have to signal it to the players on the field quickly enough for it to make a difference. that's tough, and then the jets can audible and fuck the whole trick up anyway. I doubt it would make much of a difference over the film study that these guys (the players) already do to scout formations and tendencies. more than anything I think it's a stupid risk/reward ratio to try it, meaning I don't think the pats got enough out of it to warrant the risk of the shit hitting the fan like it has
problems with the above assessment: I didn't watch the game, nor have I read anything about this other than hearing water cooler talk about it. nevertheless, I stand behind my position wholeheartedly
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - quint - 09-12-2007
if it is true and he is the only one doing it, he should be suspended.
if everyone else is, than change the rule.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - BIRD33 - 09-13-2007
what? Wrote:he'd just coach from the locker room via webcam
edit: and I agree that this is being blown out of proportion. I said at lunch today that schemes/audibles/signals etc change too much from week to week for this to be a huge advantage. even if they found a way to listen in on the qb helmet receiver thing, and actually knew the opponents' terminology well enough to determine what play was being run, then they'd still have to signal it to the players on the field quickly enough for it to make a difference. that's tough, and then the jets can audible and fuck the whole trick up anyway. I doubt it would make much of a difference over the film study that these guys (the players) already do to scout formations and tendencies. more than anything I think it's a stupid risk/reward ratio to try it, meaning I don't think the pats got enough out of it to warrant the risk of the shit hitting the fan like it has
problems with the above assessment: I didn't watch the game, nor have I read anything about this other than hearing water cooler talk about it. nevertheless, I stand behind my position wholeheartedly
You're telling me a linebacker just knowing if it's a run or pass regardless of where its going before the play starts isnt a huge advantage for the defense?If its a run then the play is most likely dead before it starts because nobody is worrying about rushing the QB and they'll just fill all the holes instead.As far as you saying the pat's wouldnt get enough out of it to make it worth it then what the fuck were they doing it for, shits and giggles?
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - Anhil8tor - 09-13-2007
I heard that the altercation lasted over an hour in the tunnel of the stadium..
the police had to be called in to prevent the jets personal from beating the shit outta the patsie...
with that being said... isn't boston turning into the most arrogant fans in the leagues?
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - BIRD33 - 09-13-2007
Anhil8tor Wrote:I heard that the altercation lasted over an hour in the tunnel of the stadium..
the police had to be called in to prevent the jets personal from beating the shit outta the patsie...
with that being said... isn't boston turning into the most arrogant fans in the leagues?
Absolutly.The whole "its no big deal" argument is astounding.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - quint - 09-13-2007
Brady needed that advanced defence protection when dealing with women.
Maybe he wouldn't have knocked that model up.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - what? - 09-13-2007
BIRD33 Wrote:You're telling me a linebacker just knowing if it's a run or pass regardless of where its going before the play starts isnt a huge advantage for the defense?If its a run then the play is most likely dead before it starts because nobody is worrying about rushing the QB and they'll just fill all the holes instead.As far as you saying the pat's wouldnt get enough out of it to make it worth it then what the fuck were they doing it for, shits and giggles?
no, I'm telling you that the linebacker knows pre-snap whether it's run or pass 80% of the time anyway, based on down and distance, formation tendencies, the stance of a lineman or the position of the running back in the backfield. the other 20% of the time he's probably got a good guess too. the LB can pick all that up in real time, without having to have it signaled in. I'm saying the incremental advantage of cheating to pick up the play call and communicate it to the defense is relatively small, because scouting is so thorough. add to that equation the amount of effort it would take to intercept, decipher, and signal in the stolen information to the defense to generate this small incremental advantage. then ask Belichick that if he gets suspended for 8 games was it worth it to beat the Jets by 24 instead of by 13
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - Anhil8tor - 09-13-2007
BIRD33 Wrote:Absolutly.The whole "its no big deal" argument is astounding.
Remember when the sawx used to argue that the yanks were just buying world championships?
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - BIRD33 - 09-13-2007
what? Wrote:no, I'm telling you that the linebacker knows pre-snap whether it's run or pass 80% of the time anyway, based on down and distance, formation tendencies, the stance of a lineman or the position of the running back in the backfield. the other 20% of the time he's probably got a good guess too. the LB can pick all that up in real time, without having to have it signaled in. I'm saying the incremental advantage of cheating to pick up the play call and communicate it to the defense is relatively small, because scouting is so thorough. add to that equation the amount of effort it would take to intercept, decipher, and signal in the stolen information to the defense to generate this small incremental advantage. then ask Belichick that if he gets suspended for 8 games was it worth it to beat the Jets by 24 instead of by 13
How does a linebacker know it's going to be a play action pass when they are lined up in a run formation?Seems like he could just blow up the qb if he didnt have to hesitate on the fake handoff.The good NFL teams are good because they keep teams off balance with their play calling and formations that look like one thing but are actually something different.What the pats were doing is a huge deal.People count cards in blackjack for small incremental advantages because its an edge over the house and its worth it in the end.
You're making it sound so complicated when it's actually really easy.If they didnt get caught the next time they played the jets they would have a coach in the booth with some binoculars trained on the other teams coaching staff.He can tell by their hand signals what play they are calling and he radios that to another coach on the sideline who holds up one finger for a pass and two for a run.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - what? - 09-13-2007
BIRD33 Wrote:How does a linebacker know it's going to be a play action pass when they are lined up in a run formation?Seems like he could just blow up the qb if he didnt have to hesitate on the fake handoff.The good NFL teams are good because they keep teams off balance with their play calling and formations that look like one thing but are actually something different.What the pats were doing is a huge deal.People count cards in blackjack for small incremental advantages because its an edge over the house and its worth it in the end.
You're making it sound so complicated when it's actually really easy.If they didnt get caught the next time they played the jets they would have a coach in the booth with some binoculars trained on the other teams coaching staff.He can tell by their hand signals what play they are calling and he radios that to another coach on the sideline who holds up one finger for a pass and two for a run.
I think counting cards is probably a good correlation. if you count cards in your head and bet big when the odds favor you, you can swing things to your favor. if you have a sheet of paper on the table and are writing down cards played to count cards, then you get thrown out, blacklisted, whatever, right? scounting the team is counting in your head. no harm, no foul, you're working within the rules and if you're smart enough to keep track in your head or to pick up on the minutiae of the offenses tendencies then you raise your chances of winning. what the pats did is pulling out the paper and writing it down.
I'm not defending the pats, I think it was cheating because the rules say it was cheating and I think it was stupid to do because I think they exposed themselves to much more punishment by cheating than would be justified by the advantage gained. these guys are on 30 something different camera angles on national television every week that can be scouted by the opposing team, don't you think that alone dictates that signals change several times over the course of the year? audibles too?
at this point I'm mostly just fulfulling my promise to "stand behind my position wholeheartedly". I don't really give a fuck one way or the other, penalize the pats or change the rule, or both. if Belichick gets canned over this, Weis should be available to take over the reigns very soon.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - quint - 09-13-2007
From ESPN
Wednesday, September 12, 2007
Updated: September 13, 5:08 AM ET
Spying scandal tests Goodell's law-and-order image
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Howard Bryant
ESPN.com
His transformation from Cleveland disaster to guru complete, his legacy as a Hall of Fame coach secure, Bill Belichick standing diminished in front of his public would be considered incongruous, but for the times in which he lives.
He coaches arguably the best football team in the universe and is busted for videotaping a team he'd already mashed in the playoffs a year earlier, a childish offense that may cost him dearly. By apparently cheating against a clearly inferior opponent -- and his former protégé Eric Mangini -- the coach with more offensive weapons than the Pentagon joined a notorious list of famous head-scratchers. Belichick's actions now echo those of Winona Ryder, the fabulously rich shoplifter; Barry Bonds, better than anybody walking the earth, but who reportedly took steroids, though unknowingly, anyway; and Kobe Bryant, sex symbol to a million women yet who was accused of rape -- a case later dismissed.
Barely a year into Roger Goodell's crackdown on misconduct, the NFL boss' get-tough philosophy is being tested by New England's spying scandal.
Belichick is now viewed as a person who because of some weird, destructive mix of arrogance (because he obviously didn't think he would be caught) and insecurity (because he felt he needed to steal signals to win in the first place) unnecessarily undermined his own achievements.
The Patriots' 38-14 win was largely untainted, for the tape was confiscated in the first quarter. Still, there will be much conversation about how, if at all, this strange episode will affect the already polarizing Belichick, or if his past accomplishments -- Super Bowls, for example -- will be cast in a different, harsher light. But as we watch Belichick, it will be just as important to watch NFL commissioner Roger Goodell.
How Goodell administers punishment of Belichick and the Patriots this week will say much about his commissionership, for the Belichick case offers Goodell a high-profile opportunity to show he is capable of imposing hard sanctions on infractions of varying nature.
It is currently unclear what is on the confiscated tape. Belichick apologized Wednesday but did not say exactly for what he was sorry. But the practice of stealing signals in football does not fall under the rubric of gamesmanship, as it does in baseball. Baseball teams don't have 700-page playbooks, as does Washington associate head coach Al Saunders. Nor do baseball players use parts of their offseason to devise game plans for opponents, and their teams aren't threatened with the loss of draft picks for relaying back to the hitter the next pitch will be a curveball. Technological espionage, however, is unacceptable in both sports. During parts of the 2003-05 seasons, opposing scouts were convinced the Boston Red Sox were stealing signs using a center-field camera.
Should it turn out that the New England tape is damaging, and Belichick and the Patriots cheated their way to an opening day win, Goodell's response will be revealing.
If he is to be taken seriously and as anything more than a hammer for management, Goodell needs to levy a serious penalty on Belichick and the Patriots, for in today's sporting climate -- Tim Donaghy, Troy Glaus, the Tour de France and the growing, disturbing talk of tennis match fixes -- upholding the integrity of the sport is just as important as suspending a player for a DUI.
Bill Belichick offered apologies but no explanation for the incident in which his club is accused of spying on the Jets.
The Patriots face possible sanctions, quite probably the loss of draft picks as punishment. What needs to happen, if indeed it is proved the Patriots incongruously cheated their way to an opening day victory against an inferior opponent? The Patriots should be put at some disadvantage during the regular season. Goodell should suspend Belichick two games -- ban him from the sidelines, the locker room and coaches' meetings -- and should not allow him to work on game plans, participate in practice or communicate with his team for two weeks.
With the players, Goodell's position is established. He is the Law and Order Commissioner. His first platform, the issue upon which he has chosen to stake the first chapter of his commissionership, is player conduct. His record to date -- his approach to Tank Johnson, Chris Henry, Pacman Jones and Michael Vick -- is clear. Even many players refer to him as the league's top cop. They understand his mission and fear his authority.
But Goodell now must sanction perhaps the league's most visible team, with a powerful owner. Robert Kraft may not be a household name to those outside of the 617 area code, but along with Jerry Jones in Dallas, Daniel Snyder in Washington and Jeffrey Lurie in Philadelphia, Kraft, with his signature zeal, is part of the league's emerging big-money revenue clique. Goodell must, in effect, show he is willing to treat Belichick's white-collar, high-tech transgression in a similar manner as Frostee Rucker's violent crime. Ostensibly both can affect how the paying customer views the legitimacy of the sport.
Violence is clearly more visceral, and certainly in the outside society violent behavior cannot be equated to breaking the rules of a game. Inside the sport is another matter, where punishment is based on negatively affecting the health and welfare of the sport. Belichick and the Patriots apparently violated a league rule in place to ensure fair contest, the root of the sport.
If Goodell does not act decisively, he will only confirm a basic truth about the commissioner-player relationship in all professional sports -- that he works for management. Of course, it has always been this way, the fiction is that the commissioner is anything but the collective employee of 32 owners. That will change only when the players have a say in who receives the jobs Messrs. Goodell, Selig, Bettman and Stern now hold.
Until then, Goodell must act. Failure to do so will prove him to be more union antagonist than impartial arbiter, the protector of football interests on all sides. If he lets Belichick off easily, Goodell will be less Law and Order Commissioner and more Company Man.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - BIRD33 - 09-13-2007
I bet it'll be a 2 game supsension for Belichek along with a first and second round picks and a $250,000 fine to the team.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - WoolyGoat - 09-13-2007
Howard Bryant is a fucking idiot. What Belichick did is similar to Kobe's RAPE charge? My god...
what?'s "writing it down" analogy seems spot on. The advantage over just using binoculars (like every other team does) is minimal at best, and absolutely not worth the risk.
From ethical and practical standpoint, what Belichick did is just plain stupid, not to mention completely unnecessary. From a football standpoint, it's far less meaningful than the media is making it out to be. EVERYONE is doing it, the Pats just 1) do it differently and 2) got caught.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - WoolyGoat - 09-13-2007
BIRD33 Wrote:I bet it'll be a 2 game supsension for Belichek along with a first and second round picks and a $250,000 fine to the team.Terrell Davis thinks the Pats should receive a two-year post season ban.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - BIRD33 - 09-13-2007
WoolyGoat Wrote:Terrell Davis thinks the Pats should receive a two-year post season ban.
He's an idiot.2 or three games without any involvment from belichek and some draft picks should suffice.
Belichek who I like because he doesnt take any shit is the biggest dick in the league.Imagine thinking you'd get away with sending a guy with a camera to the other sideline?Its so arrogant its funny.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - quint - 09-13-2007
Who will wear that old sweatshirt when he is suspended?
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - WoolyGoat - 09-13-2007
BIRD33 Wrote:He's an idiot.2 or three games without any involvment from belichek and some draft picks should suffice.Yeah, and Ty Cobb is one of the biggest assholes in the history of professional sports. You're right about Belichick, but there are bigger crimes than being a dick.
Belichek who I like because he doesnt take any shit is the biggest dick in the league.Imagine thinking you'd get away with sending a guy with a camera to the other sideline?Its so arrogant its funny.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - BIRD33 - 09-13-2007
WoolyGoat Wrote:Yeah, and Ty Cobb is one of the biggest assholes in the history of professional sports. You're right about Belichick, but there are bigger crimes than being a dick.
Stealing a guys wife?Showing no class after losing to the colts?Cheating?
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - WoolyGoat - 09-13-2007
BIRD33 Wrote:Stealing a guys wife?Showing no class after losing to the colts?Cheating?What about Shannahan cheating the cap for the Broncos two Super Bowl years? That cost him draft picks...plus, he's a dick to every fantasy player in the country with the way he handles his running backs.
insanetrain.com's fall lineup! NSFW - Anhil8tor - 09-13-2007
whose wife did he steal?
Mike Nolan is a class act.