Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Printable Version
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Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-05-2008
The insurance that I provide for my key employees (and their families) runs about $1300/month per employee/family.
So, for a person that makes $100,000, if they had my insurance that I currently carry for them, it would cost $15,600 per year.
And you are suggesting that the government can bring down that cost so that a $2,000 payroll deduction will provide that?
Give me a fucking break.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Paddy - 02-05-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:So a family that makes $100,000 per year would pay $2,000 per year for insurance? And that would cover the whole family?
Yep. However, the system is overloaded, with long waiting lists for elective procedures.
People in higher wage brackets generally take out additional health insurance, to bypass the common folk. The rates for this are nowhere near as high as they are here though.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - BIRD33 - 02-05-2008
If flump can't figure it out himself nobody can.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Banana - 02-05-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:The insurance that I provide for my key employees (and their families) runs about $1300/month per employee/family.
So, for a person that makes $100,000, if they had my insurance that I currently carry for them, it would cost $15,600 per year.
And you are suggesting that the government can bring down that cost so that a $2,000 payroll deduction will provide that?
Give me a fucking break.
You have to keep in mind that a standard family of four is unlikely to use what they pay for health care. That's what makes it affordable. Just like car insurance. Jimmy never goes to the Dr. I am there every second week.
I can't see how the government can't implement that. Are we just smarter than you?
Now don't get me wrong - our health care system has huge drawbacks (wait lists, lack of beds, long ambulance wait times), but by and large, it works. And our economy tanked for the later half of the last century. We've come back and our economy is thriving. How did we manage this amazing feat?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-05-2008
BIRD33 Wrote:If flump can't figure it out himself nobody can.
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:The insurance that I provide for my key employees (and their families) runs about $1300/month per employee/family.
So, for a person that makes $100,000, if they had my insurance that I currently carry for them, it would cost $15,600 per year.
And you are suggesting that the government can bring down that cost so that a $2,000 payroll deduction will provide that?
Give me a fucking break.
Now, let's build on that am minute.
If, we assume that they could work their asses off and bring health care down to $12,000 a year from $15,600 (a 30% decrease, which is being pretty fucking generous). Then a family that makes $100,000 a year would need a 12% payroll tax in order to pay for that.
I assume that the government can't expect people that make less than $50,000 a year to stand another 12% tax (for half as good of insurance as I provide). So they will have to start subsidizing somewhere. I can't even conceive of how much this would cost them.
Unless they plan to give everyone insurance that basically amounts to a one year trip to a voodoo doctor.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-05-2008
Banana Wrote:You have to keep in mind that a standard family of four is unlikely to use what they pay for health care. That's what makes it affordable. Just like car insurance. Jimmy never goes to the Dr. I am there every second week.
I can't see how the government can't implement that. Are we just smarter than you?
Now don't get me wrong - our health care system has huge drawbacks (wait lists, lack of beds, long ambulance wait times), but by and large, it works. And our economy tanked for the later half of the last century. We've come back and our economy is thriving. How did we manage this amazing feat?
So, you are saying that they health insurance basically works like an "all you can eat pizza buffet"? Some people eat a lot and some people don't eat hardly anything so they can average out the cost over the customer base? The ones that don't go to the doctor bring down the costs of the ones that do?
Jesus.
In the county hospitals down here, you can't even get in the fucking places in the summer for all of the poverty class that go down there to sit in the air conditioning. Hospital visits to those people are like spa trips. They go and spend the money that they aren't paying just to get out of their house.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - BIRD33 - 02-05-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Now, let's build on that am minute.
If, we assume that they could work their asses off and bring health care down to $12,000 a year from $15,600 (a 30% decrease, which is being pretty fucking generous). Then a family that makes $100,000 a year would need a 10% payroll tax in order to pay for that.
I assume that the government can't expect people that make less than $50,000 a year to stand another 10% tax (for half as good of insurance as I provide). So they will have to start subsidizing somewhere. I can't even conceive of how much this would cost them.
Unless they plan to give everyone insurance that basically amounts to a one year trip to a voodoo doctor.
The richer you are the more you pay and vice versa.Thats how low income homes can afford it.How have all these other civilized countries managed but we can't?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - BIRD33 - 02-05-2008
My work has payed for my health insurance 100% for 8 years.I've chipped in over the last 3.I havent been to a doctor in a decade.Do you think my payments possibly carried over to pay for someone else?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Banana - 02-05-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:So, you are saying that they health insurance basically works like an "all you can eat pizza buffet"? Some people eat a lot and some people don't eat hardly anything so they can average out the cost over the customer base? The ones that don't go to the doctor bring down the costs of the ones that do?
Yes. That's exactly how the car insurance system works. You might say it sucks ass if you have never had to use it, but get in one car accident, and you're thankful it's there.
Quote:In the county hospitals down here, you can't even get in the fucking places in the summer for all of the poverty class that go down there to sit in the air conditioning. Hospital visits to those people are like spa trips. They go and spend the money that they aren't paying just to get out of their house.
That would never happen here, perhaps it has something to do with air conditioning
or the fact that there is nothing exciting about sitting in a room full of sick people for 9 hours.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-05-2008
BIRD33 Wrote:My work has payed for my health insurance 100% for 8 years.I've chipped in over the last 3.I havent been to a doctor in a decade.Do you think my payments possibly carried over to pay for someone else?
Do you not think that current health care plans don't take that into account now? I know they probably don't to the extent they should, but don't you think that they set the rates so that the average they collect pays for the medical treatment with just enough profit so that they can get rich?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Banana - 02-05-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Do you not think that current health care plans don't take that into account now? I know they probably don't to the extent they should, but don't you think that they set the rates so that the average they collect pays for the medical treatment with just enough profit so that they can get rich?
Who, exactly?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - BIRD33 - 02-05-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Do you not think that current health care plans don't take that into account now? I know they probably don't to the extent they should, but don't you think that they set the rates so that the average they collect pays for the medical treatment with just enough profit so that they can get rich?
Sure.Whats your point?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-06-2008
Banana Wrote:Who, exactly?
Blue Cross for example. Here's Flumper's idea of how Blue Cross sets up their health care plan.
Okay, boys. Last year we had 1,000,000 people that we covered. We spent $500,000,000 out of our pocket to cover them. That's about $500 per person. We charged them on average about $700 per person. So we made about a $200,000,000 profit.
This year I think we should raise that to $900 per person. These costs could go up and we need to make more profit.
How the fuck else can they look at it? They can't look at each person individually. They look at the total customers divided by their total out of pocket money. Same as an "all you can eat" place does.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - BIRD33 - 02-06-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Blue Cross for example. Here's Flumper's idea of how Blue Cross sets up their health care plan.
Okay, boys. Last year we had 1,000,000 people that we covered. We spent $500,000,000 out of our pocket to cover them. That's about $500 per person. We charged them on average about $700 per person. So we made about a $200,000,000 profit.
This year I think we should raise that to $900 per person. These costs could go up and we need to make more profit.
How the fuck else can they look at it? They can't look at each person individually. They look at the total customers divided by their total out of pocket money. Same as an "all you can eat" place does.
ever hear of spread sheets?If you don't think they break down their customer base by income you're crazy.They look at each economic bracket individually.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - WoolyGoat - 02-06-2008
BIRD33 Wrote:ever hear of spread sheets?If you don't think they break down their customer base by income you're crazy.They look at each economic bracket individually.by risk level too, I'd imagine. like car insurance.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-06-2008
BIRD33 Wrote:ever hear of spread sheets?If you don't think they break down their customer base by income you're crazy.They look at each economic bracket individually.
No, I know its more complicated than that. But I know they don't sit there and list every single person on a spreadsheet. They look at regions, trends, new medical treatments, and tons of other stuff. But the point is, they know that every person's insurance is not a prediction of how much they will spend. Its an average of people like them, their age, in their city, doing what they do.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Banana - 02-06-2008
Blue Cross probably does work that way. I can only compare to what I know. Alberta Health Care (governmentbased health care) is non-profit. They don't raise costs to get richer. They raise costs to cover increased costs. The increases aren't much. Maybe 3% every two to three years. The is basic level health care. It cover you if you get unexpectedly sick.
Blue Cross is elective. It covers prescriptions, health aids and a bunch of crap that aren't medically necessary (along with some stuff deemed medically helpful, but not required, like massage). Do they want to get rich? Hell. Ya. But, they can't do it overnight and every year. People would stop paying into the fucking system. Once your cost of insurance starts exceeding what you can use of it per year, what's the point of getting it?
That's the brilliance of it. We have madated health care for all people, and extended health benefits for people (like me) who know that I want to get massage treatments for less than $70 a pop. People who don't use those services often just don't buy it.
They can't get rich off of that system.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 02-06-2008
Banana Wrote:Blue Cross probably does work that way. I can only compare to what I know. Alberta Health Care (governmentbased health care) is non-profit. They don't raise costs to get richer. They raise costs to cover increased costs. The increases aren't much. Maybe 3% every two to three years. The is basic level health care. It cover you if you get unexpectedly sick.
Blue Cross is elective. It covers prescriptions, health aids and a bunch of crap that aren't medically necessary (along with some stuff deemed medically helpful, but not required, like massage). Do they want to get rich? Hell. Ya. But, they can't do it overnight and every year. People would stop paying into the fucking system. Once your cost of insurance starts exceeding what you can use of it per year, what's the point of getting it?
That's the brilliance of it. We have madated health care for all people, and extended health benefits for people (like me) who know that I want to get massage treatments for less than $70 a pop. People who don't use those services often just don't buy it.
They can't get rich off of that system.
How much do they take out of your paycheck to cover the "government mandated health care"? and its it the same % for everyone? I'm just trying to get an idea of what kind of coverage this is.
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - BIRD33 - 02-06-2008
Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:No, I know its more complicated than that. But I know they don't sit there and list every single person on a spreadsheet. They look at regions, trends, new medical treatments, and tons of other stuff. But the point is, they know that every person's insurance is not a prediction of how much they will spend. Its an average of people like them, their age, in their city, doing what they do.
I'm sure you're probably right.Whats this have to do with why other countries can adopt a program and we can't?
It's like that Michael Moore(bear with me) movie where he goes to detroit and talks to people about the high murder rate and how everyone locks their doors at night and then he goes across the river to canada 5 minutes away from detriot and nobody locks their doors and they've had one murder in 10 years.I'm sure its complicated but other people have made it work so why can't we?
Health Care - The Democratic Thing - WoolyGoat - 02-06-2008
BIRD33 Wrote:I'm sure you're probably right.Whats this have to do with why other countries can adopt a program and we can't?too much red tape and/or stubborn D.C. types?
It's like that Michael Moore(bear with me) movie where he goes to detroit and talks to people about the high murder rate and how everyone locks their doors at night and then he goes across the river to canada 5 minutes away from detriot and nobody locks their doors and they've had one murder in 10 years.I'm sure its complicated but other people have made it work so why can't we?