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Hey democrats or presidential buffs... - BIRD33 - 01-25-2008

Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Yeah, I don't think so either. I think he would have tried to play hard ball with Saddam and pushed for sanctions and inspectors and pushed the no-fly zone stuff, but a full out war I don't think he would have ever sold.

The only reason that I ask, is that so many people swear to this day that he got elected to begin a war with Iraq to make money for the oil companies and Halliburton. I honestly think that is playing monday morning quarterback.

I agree that fear had more to do with "selling" the necessity of the war, but I think what the higher-ups were most concerned with was the growing reputation that we were developing in the middle east about being afraid to stand up. I have read that Bin Laden developed his theory that we were all talk and no action after the Somalia thing, where the troops were dragged through the streets.

I actually never thought we would actually start a pre-emptive strike and even up until the day it started, felt that something would happen to back everyone off. Like the Cuban missile crisis.


Its amazing to look back now and see how we got into Iraq knowing what we know now.The country itself was scared shitless and looking to punish someone and Bush used that.

I think Bush would have tried to kill saddam one way or the other.Him saying "this is a guy who tried to kill my dad" when asked if Saddam was really dangerous was very telling.I don't think we went to make money for Halliburton.I believe Bush really thought Iraq would be easy partly because his advisors told him it would be and that he truely thinks God has his back which is a scary way to lead a country.He definitly wanted to send a message to would be terrorists that we'd be on the offensive which might be the right strategy but I'd prefer if we actually fought terrorists that attacked us not just people that have a similar skin tone.

Hey democrats or presidential buffs... - Flumper Barflusterbutt - 01-25-2008

BIRD33 Wrote:Its amazing to look back now and see how we got into Iraq knowing what we know now.The country itself was scared shitless and looking to punish someone and Bush used that.

I think Bush would have tried to kill saddam one way or the other.Him saying "this is a guy who tried to kill my dad" when asked if Saddam was really dangerous was very telling.I don't think we went to make money for Halliburton.I believe Bush really thought Iraq would be easy partly because his advisors told him it would be and that he truely thinks God has his back which is a scary way to lead a country.He definitly wanted to send a message to would be terrorists that we'd be on the offensive which might be the right strategy but I'd prefer if we actually fought terrorists that attacked us not just people that have a similar skin tone.

Well, no question, the one thing that came out of all of that mess was the now obvious stupidity of all of our intel, spies and security advisors. I'm not sure that just finding out how bad their intel was, isn't one positive that might keep us from really fucking up one day.

And, I'll tell you something else that I have always felt about Bush. I think the whole "religious" thing is just a face he puts on himself to play the role of president. Just like him buying that ranch in Crawford. He's not a rancher and never has been. He wanted to be perceived more as an LBJ than as an ivy league guy. He might pray and all, but I don't think for a second that he is nearly as religious as he plays up to be.

I still have high hopes that the Iraq thing will ultimately end up as a positive. It has cost us way too much money and lives, but in the end (which may be a LONG time from now) I think it will be for the better. At least I hope it will be.

Hey democrats or presidential buffs... - BIRD33 - 01-25-2008

Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:Well, no question, the one thing that came out of all of that mess was the now obvious stupidity of all of our intel, spies and security advisors. I'm not sure that just finding out how bad their intel was, isn't one positive that might keep us from really fucking up one day.

And, I'll tell you something else that I have always felt about Bush. I think the whole "religious" thing is just a face he puts on himself to play the role of president. Just like him buying that ranch in Crawford. He's not a rancher and never has been. He wanted to be perceived more as an LBJ than as an ivy league guy. He might pray and all, but I don't think for a second that he is nearly as religious as he plays up to be.

I still have high hopes that the Iraq thing will ultimately end up as a positive. It has cost us way too much money and lives, but in the end (which may be a LONG time from now) I think it will be for the better. At least I hope it will be.

You make a good point about bush and his ranch.He definitely is a guy who will tell you he's doing something for one reason but its actually because of some hidden agenda.

I never wanted to go to Iraq but now that we're there and we've wasted peoples lives over it I'm in the camp that wants to see it end in a positive way.I'm not willing though to spend another 10 years trying.I say give it two more years tops and get the hell out.I'm not for permanent bases either.I think that sends the wrong message to the middle east and plays right into the message that bin laden has spread that the US wants to take over the middle east for its oil.

Hey democrats or presidential buffs... - Tommy - 01-25-2008

Flumper Barflusterbutt Wrote:The problem, in my opinion, with the economy is a combination of the lending institutions making money too available to people that shouldn't have been borrowing as much as they were, the fact that there are new people running the FED now and they have been admittedly too slow to react to the threat of a recession, and the price of oil (which is being blamed on the surge in consumption by China and others, not on the war in Iraq).

The problem with recessions is that no one knows we are in one until we are coming out of it. If we are in one, then we have been in it a while. Considering the cost of the war on our economy, I'm pretty shocked that things have stayed as good as they have. The housing market has been heading for the shitter for years. I could have told you that two years ago. My business, two years ago, was primarily paving new subdivisions. Most of them for "first time home buyers". The developers flooded the market with homes. These homes flip about every 3 to 5 years, so now its cheaper to buy a 3 or 4 year old house than it is to buy a new one. So, that market has crapped out. Now most of my business is in re-construction of existing streets. That business is booming. The cities are going apeshit with all of the new tax revenue that has been generated from the housing boom the past few years.

Economies are cyclical. Always have been. Same with elections.

And there is nothing that a real leader could do to solve any of these problems or curb their effects on teh economy and this nation's citizens. And who appointed these people to the FED?