[WoolyGoat]

And what would your stance be if this wasn't the Pats? Instead of seeing what team a player or coach is on, how about judging the action? . Bonds (cheater) has been an idiot since his earlt days in Pittsburgh. Looks like Bill and Tom are could be known as the the Rosa Ruiz of the NFL.
People who knowingly cheat suck regardless of what town they play in.
The Pats have to win the Bowl this year. If they don't this team becomes an *.

That wasn't what I was trying to say. Obviously if a team cheats, they cheat, regardless of where they're from. What is it that you want me to do now? Denounce the team altogether? Become a Jets fan? Congratulate Philly on their Super Bowl win a few years ago? That's ridiculous.

The situation is what it is. They cheated, they got caught, they got penalized. As a Patriots fan, I'm ashamed. I think the is awful. No matter what really happened, or however long they've been taping, people are going to toss asterisks around. Some people will actually believe they only won because they cheated. Some people will whine because it gives their team an "out" for losing. Some people will just pile on and make dumb jokes ('sup Tribal?) because that's the thing to do.

The Pats got bagged for spying illegally, while the majority of other teams in the league simply spy legally. My honest opinion (and why would I lie to you e-folk? :roll is that the competitive advantage gained from spying illegally vs. spying legally isn't that great. I think it was brash and I think it was arrogant. In terms of an actual difference on the football field, affecting games, I don't really know. Some experts say it's not a big deal, others think it is.

I think the main reason for the "hefty" fine is that Belichick deliberately disobeyed an edict set forth by Goodell. Goodell said "don't did it" and Belichick did it anyway, and in week 1 no less. The punishment was more for that than it was for actually affecting football games, imo.

[BIRD33]

I agree with Wooley that Barry Bonds isnt cheating because everyone else is probably cheating and him bulking up didnt help him hit that many more homers than he would have.

[WoolyGoat]

I agree with Wooley that Barry Bonds isnt cheating because everyone else is probably cheating and him bulking up didnt help him hit that many more homers than he would have.

That's interesting. I hadn't really thought of a baseball analogy. The steroid link isn't the one, though.

Obviously, you look at stealing the catcher's signs, and relaying the pitch to the hitter. Every team in the league tries to steal signs, it's part of the game. Several teams have been accused of using video equipment in their home parks to see the catcher...that's where the line is crossed. If a runner on second can see the signs a catcher is putting down (ie - guy in the booth with binoculars), then it's the catcher's dumb fault for being easy to read. But if the team is using a camera in centerfield (ie - camera on the sideline) to see the signs, that's taking it too far. In the end, the result is similar - the hitting team steals the sign and relays it to the batter; but it's the method through which it's done that is questionable.

[BIRD33]

That's interesting. I hadn't really thought of a baseball analogy. The steroid link isn't the one, though.

Obviously, you look at stealing the catcher's signs, and relaying the pitch to the hitter. Every team in the league tries to steal signs, it's part of the game. Several teams have been accused of using video equipment in their home parks to see the catcher...that's where the line is crossed. If a runner on second can see the signs a catcher is putting down (ie - guy in the booth with binoculars), then it's the catcher's dumb fault for being easy to read. But if the team is using a camera in centerfield (ie - camera on the sideline) to see the signs, that's taking it too far. In the end, the result is similar - the hitting team steals the sign and relays it to the batter; but it's the method through which it's done that is questionable.

Watching you parse this to death has been pure comedy.Your team is a bunch of cheaters and all their wins are now suspect and their dynasty reputation is gone forever.Deal with it.All these analogys on why it wasnt that bad or how all sport teams do it in some way is pathetic.

[WoolyGoat]

I responded to your analogy, dude. If you don't want to hear them, don't make them.

Long story short, I'm not an expert and neither are you. I have no idea how much or how little those tapes affected games (or for how long) and neither do you. I would love to hear Belichick come clean about the whole thing (even if it meant permanently tarnishing the dynasty) because I'd rather know for sure than not know at all. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen, so I don't know how anyone can accurately say which games were affected and which weren't.

Would I throw an asterisk around if it were the Colts? I don't know. Would I make jokes and ride Colts fans about it? Of course.

The Pats are wrong/tarnished/cheaters, whatever. But that's as far as I'm going to go with it.

[BIRD33]

I think we all learned a valuable lesson today.When an area prides itself for years on standing up to the evil empire that is New York finally wins a few championships they turn into the same arrogant fans who look the other way when they've got the unfair advantage that they hated.It's quite the sociological experiment.

[WoolyGoat]

I never bitched about New York doing anything.

And if you think it would be any different if it were Philly, Chicago, or Detroit, you're fooling yourself.

[BIRD33]

I never bitched about New York doing anything.

And if you think it would be any different if it were Philly, Chicago, or Detroit, you're fooling yourself.

I can't speak for Chicago or Detroit but I promise you Philly would be eating Andy Reid alive today if he got caught.

[WoolyGoat]

I can't speak for Chicago or Detroit but I promise you Philly would be eating Andy Reid alive today if he got caught.

Belichick is getting eaten alive today too. They're killing him in the globe and on the radio.

But I'm not going to stop rooting for the team or give up Super Bowl titles just because the coach is an ass.

[Tribal Dragon]

I can't speak for Chicago or Detroit but I promise you Philly would be eating Andy Reid alive today if he got caught.

Fuck yeah! You guys boo Santa Claus.

I should move to Philly.

[BIRD33]

Belichick is getting eaten alive today too. They're killing him in the globe and on the radio.

But I'm not going to stop rooting for the team or give up Super Bowl titles just because the coach is an ass.

I'm not saying stop rooting for the pat's but just pointing out that it seems like a lot of Bostons reaction (simmons, yourself) was to point out other teams might be doing it or bring up other problems in the Nfl rather than to just say first and foremost this is bullshit and the penalty was weak.

[quint]

Fuck yeah! You guys boo Santa Claus.

I should move to Philly.

Actually we throw snowballs at a drunk Santa in the 60's.
We also threw snowballs at Jimmie Johnson, and Jimme the Greek.

[WoolyGoat]

I'm not saying stop rooting for the pat's but just pointing out that it seems like a lot of Bostons reaction (simmons, yourself) was to point out other teams might be doing it or bring up other problems in the Nfl rather than to just say first and foremost this is bullshit and the penalty was weak.

So it looks like coach said he thought it was legal as long as they were only doing it to prepare for future games...meaning there was no elaborate relaying of signs as games were going on.

I definitely don't believe that he really thought what he was doing was w/in the rules, but I tend to believe that he wasn't using it for real-time advantage...if for no other reason than the logistics are just too difficult.

The whole thing is still shady on the coach's part, but as a fan I feel slightly more comfortable being able to believe that he wasn't cheating in real-time.

[BIRD33]

So it looks like coach said he thought it was legal as long as they were only doing it to prepare for future games...meaning there was no elaborate relaying of signs as games were going on.

I definitely don't believe that he really thought what he was doing was w/in the rules, but I tend to believe that he wasn't using it for real-time advantage...if for no other reason than the logistics are just too difficult.

The whole thing is still shady on the coach's part, but as a fan I feel slightly more comfortable being able to believe that he wasn't cheating in real-time.

If New England wasnt historically a better second half team I would buy that explanation.It wouldnt be that hard if the guy recording it was keeping track of the quarter and time of game on each signal he was recording and then using tivo compared it to the actual play at halftime.It would be easy.

[WoolyGoat]

If New England wasnt historically a better second half team I would buy that explanation.It wouldnt be that hard if the guy recording it was keeping track of the quarter and time of game on each signal he was recording and then using tivo compared it to the actual play at halftime.It would be easy.

that's certainly a point, but look at some of their high-profile games; They nearly blew BOTH the Rams Super Bowl and the Panthers Super Bowl, and they were up HUGE on the Colts in the AFC title game last year and blew that one...all in the second half.

[BIRD33]

that's certainly a point, but look at some of their high-profile games; They nearly blew BOTH the Rams Super Bowl and the Panthers Super Bowl, and they were up HUGE on the Colts in the AFC title game last year and blew that one...all in the second half.

They lost games every year so it's not like cheating has made them unbeatable.I'm not saying NE was or is a bad team or needed to cheat to win but they've lost the benefit of the doubt.

[BIRD33]

I believe more than half of New England thinks like Bill Simmons on this issue.The below quote is simply embarassing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/sto...bostonblog

1. Is there a chance -- just a chance -- Belichick has gotten a little paranoid in his old age, and since an undermanned Jets team played them closely in all three Pats-Jets games last season, he spent the spring and summer wondering if Mangini had figured out a way to steal their signals, so he decided to tape their coaches in Week 1 to see if that was true? And then he got caught?






But since they've already paid a steep penalty for a one-time indiscretion, can we move on with the 2007 NFL season, please? Is everyone done piling on and competing in the "The Race To See Who Can Seem The Most Disgusted and Outraged" contest? As a Massachusetts reader named Sidewinder e-mailed me Friday, "I can't believe how hysterical Peter King sounded on WEEI when talking about Belichick's indiscretion. Talk about getting his skirt up in a bunch. Does this guy realize sports is the toy department of life? Save the righteous indignation for the 9/11 anniversary or the waste of a generation in Iraq."

See, that's the thing. It's sports. People cheat. People do bad things. People make mistakes. It's just like real life, only it doesn't matter nearly as much.

One time discretion?The league had to force the pats to turn over all their illegal tapes on Sunday morning.Boston be ashamed of yourselves.

[WoolyGoat]

Yeah I thought the same thing. Simmons has gone a bit overboard. Easterbrook (TMQ) went a little overboard the other way, though.

[BIRD33]

Yeah I thought the same thing. Simmons has gone a bit overboard. Easterbrook (TMQ) went a little overboard the other way, though.

Yea I saw that too.If they were going to fire Belichek it would have happened.Unless he's hiding something else it's blowing over.Belichek not answering questions by saying "it's in the past" is bullshit though.It happened last week not 10 years ago.People who watch, buy tickets and bet on games deserve a full explanation.I used to be a Belichek admirer but now he's one of the things wrong with sports and society to me.

[WoolyGoat]

He went on and on thanking the fans for his warm reception, etc. the other night. I think he owes the fans a full, honest explanation. Unfortunately that'll never happen.