[who]

what's the general feeling?

[WoolyGoat]

my first reaction was disappointment, but nothing really surprises me anymore re: roids

then obviously you have to be curious as to when he started, and why.

I'm also not sure why players bother with their ridiculous excuses, but whatever.

[BIRD33]

Simmons article on how the 2004 Red Sox are tainted is interesting.

Its quite possible the best players of the last 15 years will not get into the hall of fame.Not sure why baseball doesnt adopt a zero tolerance policy at this point.One failed test and banned for life.How can it keep going on like this?

[WoolyGoat]

I don't really mind players getting a second chance, but you're right.


I don't necessarily think any championships are tainted, but only because there were (are) players on every team doing the same thing, so the playing field's still basically level.

[BIRD33]

The everybody else was doing it defense didnt work with your parents and it doesnt work here.If you want to say the whole decade is tainted then fine but you can't just look the other way because everyone was doing it and pretend like that team is now not tainted.I'm not just picking on the Red Sox, take a look at the 2002 Giants that won the pennant.Close to 8 or 9 guys on that roster were using.

Part of the reason I think the sox are tainted is because its become pretty obvious David Ortiz was using.


I'd be fine with second chances if this was 2001 to 2005.Everybody knows steroids is cheating now so there is no gray area anymore and if you get caught you are willingly defrauding the game and its fans.I 100% guarantee that if Manny got thrown out for life steroid use would drop 95%.50 games out costs manny what, a few 100K?Didnt he sign a 40 million dollar contract?If I'm a minor leaguer taking the risk is still worth it.

[Vitamin E]

Never trade with Boston.

[who]

bud selig still commissioner?

[WoolyGoat]

The everybody else was doing it defense didnt work with your parents and it doesnt work here.If you want to say the whole decade is tainted then fine but you can't just look the other way because everyone was doing it and pretend like that team is now not tainted.I'm not just picking on the Red Sox, take a look at the 2002 Giants that won the pennant.Close to 8 or 9 guys on that roster were using.

Part of the reason I think the sox are tainted is because its become pretty obvious David Ortiz was using.


I'd be fine with second chances if this was 2001 to 2005.Everybody knows steroids is cheating now so there is no gray area anymore and if you get caught you are willingly defrauding the game and its fans.I 100% guarantee that if Manny got thrown out for life steroid use would drop 95%.50 games out costs manny what, a few 100K?Didnt he sign a 40 million dollar contract?If I'm a minor leaguer taking the risk is still worth it.

it cost manny $8m, probably still just a small step above being a drop in the bucket though.

the point I'm trying to make is that there are STILL dirty players on EVERY team, and probably more than just one. I don't think it's right to say a particular championship is tainted simply because a story made the newspaper. there were dirty players on the phillies last year, just like the cards in 06 and the chisox in 05, it's just a fact of baseball right now.

[BIRD33]

The Phillies have a guy out right now on suspension who played in the world series so I get every team has a guy who did or is doing them.The fact it was your main players basically doing them and you wouldnt have had a shot in hell at winning the whole thing without them kind of puts a huge damper on that teams legacy.

30 years from now if you ask people to name their two main memories of the 2004 redsox #1 obviously will be the team that broke the curse but fighting for #2 with schillings bloody sock will be steroids.

J.C. Romero and steroids will be the 10th thing people bring up 30 years from now about last years Phil's.Same thing with most other winning teams.

I'm not saying the team wasnt legit since everyone else was doing the same thing but it still looks bad and will forever.

[BIRD33]

I say all that in the context that I think Manny and Ortiz were possibly the best one two punch in my life time.

[WoolyGoat]

it's just as easy that Ortiz's decline is because he WASN'T on steroids?

his career high in homers (54) came when he was 31 years old in 2006, at a reasonable age which is also well after the new "stricter" testing rules were put in place. then he dipped to 35 and then 23, now he's 34 years old and has zero homers in the middle of may.

guys like bonds and clemens maintained and even improved as they reached their mid to upper thirties, but ortiz is falling off the face of the earth...kind of right around the time where his age should start to affect his production.


it just sucks that the way MLB and the players union have been handling the situation has caused a shadow to be cast over every single player in the game...fans have no way of knowing who they should be proud of and who they should shun, and clean players (if ortiz isn't clean, there's someone else with a similar career arc who IS clean) really have no way to escape the shadow.


and I know you'll tell me I'm drinking kool-aid again, but all I'm trying to say is that it's hard to know what to think about anyone.

[BIRD33]

it's just as easy that Ortiz's decline is because he WASN'T on steroids?

his career high in homers (54) came when he was 31 years old in 2006, at a reasonable age which is also well after the new "stricter" testing rules were put in place. then he dipped to 35 and then 23, now he's 34 years old and has zero homers in the middle of may.

guys like bonds and clemens maintained and even improved as they reached their mid to upper thirties, but ortiz is falling off the face of the earth...kind of right around the time where his age should start to affect his production.


it just sucks that the way MLB and the players union have been handling the situation has caused a shadow to be cast over every single player in the game...fans have no way of knowing who they should be proud of and who they should shun, and clean players (if ortiz isn't clean, there's someone else with a similar career arc who IS clean) really have no way to escape the shadow.


and I know you'll tell me I'm drinking kool-aid again, but all I'm trying to say is that it's hard to know what to think about anyone.

Stricter testing started in 2005.He could have quit right before it and still reaped the benefits in 2006.

I see your side of the deal.I don't like saying ortiz did them without proof but his production all the sudden dropping off could be age but it also could be the stricter testing.He always did seem smarter then manny so maybe he wised up?I don't know but it seems like a lot of guys from the dominican including manny were juicing.

I read that statement by Ortiz the other day saying he "was shocked" when he heard manny tested positive and "thats not the manny he knows".Do you really believe he didnt know manny was juicing?that makes me wonder about if Big Papi is loyal or a liar.I think a- I never got involved with mannys personal life- would have sufficed.

I agree MLB and the players union royally fucked this up and made it worse.I'm shocked individual clean players havent been more vocal about the whole thing but I guess they were benefitting from the higher salaries being paid to the guys who were juicing.

[Anhil8tor]

Anyone with Griffey rookies... the prices are going up with each and every major league that tests positive for steroids. Kudos to you for doing it clean and never being questions Griff

[WoolyGoat]

seriously, Griffey might be the one guy I would be SHOCKED to learn was juicing.


I heard Schilling on the radio last week saying that he's never actually seen a needle going into anyone before. I think because as fans we "know" everyone is using, we just imagine a big steroid party behind closed doors, with everyone shooting each other up. I would imagine that in a majority of instances, the juicer goes to great lengths to keep his drug use under wraps.

Manny's a guy who hasn't had huge spikes in numbers, and he's always been regarded by teammates as the hardest working hitter they've ever seen. Given that, I can see how Ortiz was surprised, but you're right that he probably should have left it at "I never got involved with his personal life."

[BIRD33]

it's just as easy that Ortiz's decline is because he WASN'T on steroids?

his career high in homers (54) came when he was 31 years old in 2006, at a reasonable age which is also well after the new "stricter" testing rules were put in place. then he dipped to 35 and then 23, now he's 34 years old and has zero homers in the middle of may.

guys like bonds and clemens maintained and even improved as they reached their mid to upper thirties, but ortiz is falling off the face of the earth...kind of right around the time where his age should start to affect his production.


it just sucks that the way MLB and the players union have been handling the situation has caused a shadow to be cast over every single player in the game...fans have no way of knowing who they should be proud of and who they should shun, and clean players (if ortiz isn't clean, there's someone else with a similar career arc who IS clean) really have no way to escape the shadow.


and I know you'll tell me I'm drinking kool-aid again, but all I'm trying to say is that it's hard to know what to think about anyone.

Yea he was doping.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports...ml?_r=2&hp

World series now illegitimate.

[BIRD33]

How does your opinion of Big Papi change now that he's been basically proven a liar after saying he was "shocked" manny was juicing?I think he's looking pretty lame.

[WoolyGoat]

this is kinda ruining my day...i'm very disappointed, again.


i would've (and have) made all the same jokes accusations as everyone else, but I still think it's the individual achievements that should be asterisked/tainted, not the team achievements. every team in the last 10-15-20 years that has won the world series has done so with juicers on their team, and they won in the playoffs by beating other teams who were juicing. that includes the 90s yankees, recent red sox, and last year's phillies.

[WoolyGoat]

How does your opinion of Big Papi change now that he's been basically proven a liar after saying he was "shocked" manny was juicing?I think he's looking pretty lame.

he's a good person, but obviously a fraud as a baseball player. obviously i'll be interested to hear more details as they emerge, but I have to lump him in with Manny and every other guy who's been exposed.

[BIRD33]

JC Romero < ManRam\Big Papi

I don't think people who lie to everyones face are good people.I respect Mark Mcguire more at this point.

[WoolyGoat]

do you think JC Romero was the only guy on roids or hgh on the Phils last year? I know you're a fanboi and all, but that's pretty naive.


and Ortiz is still a good guy in light of what he does for the community, I meant. He's not an asshole like Bonds.